“I was 25, younger than you are now, but times were different then; I was a man at that age, the master of a large plantation just south of New Orleans.” - Anne Rice, Interview With The Vampire
"What's in my makeup is in my makeup," Leonard said. "I'm a man. I got balls. So do you. I like balls. I like your balls, but I'm still a man and I got to feel like a man. Maybe I'm some kind of anomaly or something. I don't know. I don't get it. But I like a man acts like a man without thinking it's being a bully. I can't explain it to him, Hap. Can you?” - Joe R. Lansdale, The Two-Bear Mambo
“There’s no such thing as adulthood. It’s a myth.” - Tyler Zed
“Grow up.” - Also Tyler Zed
There’s a lot of energy being devoted to worrying about how the state of the world is affecting children.
What makes a child? During my studies, I saw several equally strong arguments made for wholly distinct definitions of the concept:
Argument 1 (biological): especially in general biology- particularly when discussing non-human animals, a child is an individual that is not sexually mature (that is to say, does not have reproductive organs and gametes yet capable of producing viable offspring). Throughout history, countless cultures have considered girls to be women at the onset of their first menses (interestingly, a much more visible indication of reproductive maturity than human males, who certainly have a threshold of reproductive viability which is largely unobservable). It’s worth noting that in modern history, the average age at which this reproductive maturity occurs- at least in girls- has varied wildly, with many girls in the United States reaching menses at the age of 8. Is an 8-year old a woman?
Argument 2 (legalistic/developmental): an adult is an individual who has been judged by their society to be capable of governing all aspects of their lives independent of their parents or similar guardians and who is entitled to the full roster of rights and responsibilities that society accords, whatever those may be. In our society, children can achieve “legal emancipation” from their parents affording them the status of adults before the age normally assigned. Depending on the culture and locale, children may have rights and responsibilities very different from other places: Brothermouth and I both had jobs outside of school from when we were each 14, the legal age for such in our state at the time; children as young as 6 were regularly employed in dangerous professions such as coal mining in much of the Western world before widespread labor reform in the 20th century.
As societies have advanced, the basis for “judged capable” has moved from more arbitrary cultural milestones (e.g., receiving religious confirmation such as communion or bar mitzvah at age 13, complete with adulthood rites) towards one ostensibly ruled increasingly by scientific understanding- what we believe developing humans to be cognitively capable of. As this understanding remains very far from “settled science,” the notion of a “mature adult” differs wildly across modern societies and is frequently revised- Fathermouth was allowed to buy alcohol and tobacco at age 16 growing up in Illinois, and many jurisdictions allow marriage at ages even younger with parental consent. Lawmakers frequently cite emerging and evolving research in developmental psychology regarding milestones of brain development and the fullness of various specific structures we attribute to cognitive abilities we associate with, say, the ability to make moral evaluations, engage in long-term planning, and to not giggle loudly and uncontrollably in public when the word “Titicaca” or the number 69 are spoken aloud.
Argument 3 (psychosocial): Looking at the other end of the boundary- not what makes a child, but what makes an adult- most of us can’t help but notice that there seems to be a big deficit of, well, adults in a lot of areas of society; millennials cringingly coined the term “adulting” to describe basic life skills like doing one’s own laundry or balancing a bank account as major accomplishments to be mastered in one’s 20s. Informed decision-making seems to be on the decline, as does the ability to navigate the fundamental structures of society (finding employment, housing, marrying and parenting, managing one’s finances, etc.). We all love to complain about this and give copious amounts of shit to the many people that fail at these basics, but an objective question can be raised within this framework: has what it takes to be an adult- beyond any purely biological argument- changed sufficiently that the framework is a barely useful patchwork of tradition and disparate legal fiat?
What makes an adult? Is it (yeah, I’m gonna use the word) fluid? Who decides? What difference does it make?
Go.
Wow, what a cool and engaging discussion! And some of these people are only marginally batshit. This seems like a community I can get behind. I don’t even have to stand around in the cold screaming at anyone!
I should get all my friends and acquaintances to flood in here and dominate this conversation so we can turn this place into an echo chamber and then bitch about it.
i love calvin and hobbes , got the whole collection and read all of anne rices' books.
i was mature early, hung out with older people in my teens, i was 15 dating a 17 yr old girl, at that age its a big deal but i dont think i reached what i'd call an adult till quite late.
some (women) say men never grow up, but thats not true we just wait till we have grey hair before we become boring
There's a frequent canard- one I heard a lot in grad school- about how men's and women's brains mature at different rates, and there was a lot of non-trivial discussion at the time in certain circles about how this should impact legislation (this was around the time there were several SCOTUS cases about serious teenage offenders like multiple murderers being tried as adults).
For better or worse, we're too pluralistic a society (Western Civ more broadly) to safely assume anymore that everyone has a reasonably identical knee-jerk notion of where the line is anymore, it seems- and I think the current battleground of the "culture wars" where children are concerned reflects that.
As much as I dislike an ever-encroaching state, this is what we need clear laws based on some kind of objective principles for.
murder is one of those ones you know pretty damned early not to do, exactly what age i dont know but by teenager if you murder you should be tried as having understanding of the severity of your crime, so as an adult.
the only way we can really do it is by grading, drinking at 21 etc. im not sure i entirely agree with where the levels are, what other options do we have?
The argument (at the time) was not necessarily that a child or teenager has no idea what murder and its implications are (though that HAS come up several times with developmentally disabled adults), it had more to do with notions of diminished capacity like impulse control and emotionality opening the door for lesser sentencing (the cases I'm thinking of were mainly whether or not to try the teen as an adult where the implication would be a death penalty or life without parole).
As far as "what other options do we have," well, if we WANT clear and consistent laws, then we don't have other options- but we can look at whether the standards of those laws make sense (like 16 year-olds no longer being allowed to buy alcohol in Illinois).
Great question! Over the past few decades, it seems physical/sexual maturity happens much earlier in life than it used to, while emotional/mental maturity happens much later (if it happens at all). Not a great combination!
There's something about paying your own bills that really marks a clear transition from being a child to being an adult (especially for men). Which is why most of today's college kids are still kids, though they're constantly being told that they, not the adults, are the ones who know how to solve all the world's problems. Again, not a great combination: freedom and rights with zero responsibility or accountability. Of course, this prepares them well for careers in banking or political advocacy.
I tend to favor a psychosocial definition of adulthood for all the reasons you stated- in no sane world is a menstruating 8-year old a woman- and on that standard, I think the definition of an adult should probably be reviewed- and I'd argue an adult is probably OLDER, not younger, these days.
There was a series not long ago about transhumanism where the legal age of majority was raised to 30 or something because everyone's lifespans were now incredibly long and society had radically reconfigured itself, and the late 20-somethings were enacting very teenage-like rebellion at being obviously mentally mature but not recognized as such by the state.
Love this post! I'll add another cartoon that was sent this morning from Rat Says and seems related: https://ratsays.substack.com/p/sharing. I'll add another wrinkle: being an adult is taking more responsibility for yourself and others than others are taking for you. This would mean that the whole colonial history of the 'master race' is reversed, and the slaves were the adults with masters as perpetual dependents (not an original theory, of course). And it calls into question our modern consumer society, and whether those who provide our food and stuff are the adults in the global room. And whether 'you'll own nothing and be happy' is moving us to the extreme of being forever babies.
Calvin is debating doing his homework. Going to play outside now is short term gratification. Doing his homework will lead to possible long term gratification.
He decides to go outside and play because in the very long term, he is guaranteed good memories.
Knowing when to do that? When to say, “Fuck it!” and leap without looking?
I don't think you've brought it up here but I definitely remember you referencing it.
I think the "third way" discussed here is the essence of Waterson and other people who know how to properly contextualize the gifts of childhood- those who have the determination and wisdom to defy the adage that "youth is wasted on the young."
I'm not very good at it. I've been very heavily conditioned to admire "adulting" for its own sake, and (believe it or not) have been the "designated adult" a lot of my life.
There is an extent to which "adultness" is a complete bullshit lie that I suspect has more than a little to do with capitalism. But there's definitely an extent to which it isn't, and you're really pathetic if you're 30 and can't physically care for yourself.
It isn't nearly as clear a path as the false binary.
This made me want to watch the Cowboy Bebop episode "Speak Like A Child" again.
I’d forgotten (ironically, turns out) that episode and read the cliff notes just now.
I don’t know what my younger self would’ve said to my older self. I’m not sure it’s really possible to know, without one’s younger self creating a record. Maybe my parents have something saved.
In any case, I can safely say a conversation between us would make an interesting day.
I thought about this very, very often as a kid. Sci-fi filled my imagination with the possibility of standing next to a clone or digital engram or time traveler, and what would the two of us say and do?
I made a firm pledge as a kid to trust what Experienced Me said and to memorize countersigns if that fantastical day were ever to occur to be assured we were versions of one another committed to our shared self-interest.
But looking back, I maybe should have spent at least as much time imprinting durable notions for Future Me to more easily access.
Ps... is there an edit feature on the app? I really would clean up some of the heinous typing typos that none of you ever hassle me about. ( some, because if it's a dyslexism, there's a chance I just won't see it)
Oh..bo doubt I will...but I'm thinking of more than the MAPS aspect bullshit...and I'm at the gym, which means I can work out my frustration and my thoughts
Sex is only valid, only moral between Consenting adults.
When you neither have the mental framework to associate danger,cost ,or consequences...when you haven't the years to evaluate your Own personal perspective on the interaction and consequences ( mental,physical, emotional) you cannot be considered an adult.
If you have all that and Still not the capacity, it mental retardation, imo also not an adult.
If you have all the chances and time...and still male dumbest decisions?? That's on you. Consequences as an adult.
How do we evaluate who has that framework and who doesn't?
You correctly observe that seriously mentally retarded children are, for all intents, legally children.
But there have been frequent controversies about such "legal children" having sex with EACH OTHER, and having children they are unable to care for, which in turn become a social burden (or are aborted, again without the consent of the "legal child" carrying them).
I would say that much of my comment would apply,even if you excised " sex and sexual conduct etc" out of it.
As to how to evaluate? That's gunna be a bitch,ain't it?
We " generalize" our evaluation already by saying:
" Thou art 18,and by dint of having survived the ravages of almost 2 decades, we proclaim you Experienced Enough to Adult!"
When in truth,there probably ought be some kind of mental/emotional capacity testing for individuals at 18...with requisite, honest to goodness slaps to the head for those who have the Capacity,but refuse to shoulder the Maturity aspects.
Also- just because we made/make slaves of children in mines etc...doesn't mean they're "all growed up like!". ( and no...I'm not saying you suggested such). It means some times and circumstances don't care whit that as a babe yet,you've not had time to just " be children"
i love calvin and hobbes , got the whole collection and read all of anne rices' books.
i was mature early, hung out with older people in my teens, i was 15 dating a 17 yr old girl, at that age its a big deal but i dont think i reached what i'd call an adult till quite late.
some (women) say men never grow up, but thats not true we just wait till we have grey hair before we become boring
There's a frequent canard- one I heard a lot in grad school- about how men's and women's brains mature at different rates, and there was a lot of non-trivial discussion at the time in certain circles about how this should impact legislation (this was around the time there were several SCOTUS cases about serious teenage offenders like multiple murderers being tried as adults).
For better or worse, we're too pluralistic a society (Western Civ more broadly) to safely assume anymore that everyone has a reasonably identical knee-jerk notion of where the line is anymore, it seems- and I think the current battleground of the "culture wars" where children are concerned reflects that.
As much as I dislike an ever-encroaching state, this is what we need clear laws based on some kind of objective principles for.
murder is one of those ones you know pretty damned early not to do, exactly what age i dont know but by teenager if you murder you should be tried as having understanding of the severity of your crime, so as an adult.
the only way we can really do it is by grading, drinking at 21 etc. im not sure i entirely agree with where the levels are, what other options do we have?
The argument (at the time) was not necessarily that a child or teenager has no idea what murder and its implications are (though that HAS come up several times with developmentally disabled adults), it had more to do with notions of diminished capacity like impulse control and emotionality opening the door for lesser sentencing (the cases I'm thinking of were mainly whether or not to try the teen as an adult where the implication would be a death penalty or life without parole).
As far as "what other options do we have," well, if we WANT clear and consistent laws, then we don't have other options- but we can look at whether the standards of those laws make sense (like 16 year-olds no longer being allowed to buy alcohol in Illinois).
Great question! Over the past few decades, it seems physical/sexual maturity happens much earlier in life than it used to, while emotional/mental maturity happens much later (if it happens at all). Not a great combination!
There's something about paying your own bills that really marks a clear transition from being a child to being an adult (especially for men). Which is why most of today's college kids are still kids, though they're constantly being told that they, not the adults, are the ones who know how to solve all the world's problems. Again, not a great combination: freedom and rights with zero responsibility or accountability. Of course, this prepares them well for careers in banking or political advocacy.
I tend to favor a psychosocial definition of adulthood for all the reasons you stated- in no sane world is a menstruating 8-year old a woman- and on that standard, I think the definition of an adult should probably be reviewed- and I'd argue an adult is probably OLDER, not younger, these days.
There was a series not long ago about transhumanism where the legal age of majority was raised to 30 or something because everyone's lifespans were now incredibly long and society had radically reconfigured itself, and the late 20-somethings were enacting very teenage-like rebellion at being obviously mentally mature but not recognized as such by the state.
Love this post! I'll add another cartoon that was sent this morning from Rat Says and seems related: https://ratsays.substack.com/p/sharing. I'll add another wrinkle: being an adult is taking more responsibility for yourself and others than others are taking for you. This would mean that the whole colonial history of the 'master race' is reversed, and the slaves were the adults with masters as perpetual dependents (not an original theory, of course). And it calls into question our modern consumer society, and whether those who provide our food and stuff are the adults in the global room. And whether 'you'll own nothing and be happy' is moving us to the extreme of being forever babies.
I suspect I’ve brought this comic up before here, but maybe not. Here’s a link to it. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/36/49/15/364915f9f37fb9c2df7fcc8a6c3534c1.jpg
Calvin is debating doing his homework. Going to play outside now is short term gratification. Doing his homework will lead to possible long term gratification.
He decides to go outside and play because in the very long term, he is guaranteed good memories.
Knowing when to do that? When to say, “Fuck it!” and leap without looking?
Big sign of adulthood.
I don't think you've brought it up here but I definitely remember you referencing it.
I think the "third way" discussed here is the essence of Waterson and other people who know how to properly contextualize the gifts of childhood- those who have the determination and wisdom to defy the adage that "youth is wasted on the young."
I'm not very good at it. I've been very heavily conditioned to admire "adulting" for its own sake, and (believe it or not) have been the "designated adult" a lot of my life.
There is an extent to which "adultness" is a complete bullshit lie that I suspect has more than a little to do with capitalism. But there's definitely an extent to which it isn't, and you're really pathetic if you're 30 and can't physically care for yourself.
It isn't nearly as clear a path as the false binary.
This made me want to watch the Cowboy Bebop episode "Speak Like A Child" again.
I’d forgotten (ironically, turns out) that episode and read the cliff notes just now.
I don’t know what my younger self would’ve said to my older self. I’m not sure it’s really possible to know, without one’s younger self creating a record. Maybe my parents have something saved.
In any case, I can safely say a conversation between us would make an interesting day.
I thought about this very, very often as a kid. Sci-fi filled my imagination with the possibility of standing next to a clone or digital engram or time traveler, and what would the two of us say and do?
I made a firm pledge as a kid to trust what Experienced Me said and to memorize countersigns if that fantastical day were ever to occur to be assured we were versions of one another committed to our shared self-interest.
But looking back, I maybe should have spent at least as much time imprinting durable notions for Future Me to more easily access.
What makes an adult is carefully considering a paid subscription in regards to rewarding usage of Calvin and Hobbes.
Obviously, this adult made the correct choice.
We stand on the shoulders of giants.
Fortunately, we get to pick the giants.
I’m stealing that and you can’t stop me.
Only because badasses don't run in either direction.
That and I can't because the ACL I stole from a corpse would rip out if I tried right now.
I always had good timing. Haha.
Ps... is there an edit feature on the app? I really would clean up some of the heinous typing typos that none of you ever hassle me about. ( some, because if it's a dyslexism, there's a chance I just won't see it)
Yes, there is. To the right of "Collapse" there are three dots that, when tapped, will reveal a plethora of other actions, including "Edit Comment."
Toooooootally unrelated,but I can't remember when we were discussing Time etc.
Interview with Matias De Stefano on After Death, " Reincarnation " ,Time...
Holyshit...my head ...
Fiber! ( though you know it not) I've re-looked ( I did some small amount of research pre asking lol)
Probably the phone. I get no collapse, nor edit options from the 3 dots. They do not favor me...I should ask for a Quest...
Fibber....I tried to write fiber! Tho...you might be kinda stringy...hard to say 🤔😂
I'm thinking hard on this,as my knee-jerk reaction to certain aspects make me want to throat punch some people...repeatedly.
This is The Gutter. Just answer straight and without pretense. Knee-jerk away.
Oh..bo doubt I will...but I'm thinking of more than the MAPS aspect bullshit...and I'm at the gym, which means I can work out my frustration and my thoughts
Without playing devil's advocate for them, answer the question with them as a consideration. What threshold makes that behavior depraved and why?
Sex is only valid, only moral between Consenting adults.
When you neither have the mental framework to associate danger,cost ,or consequences...when you haven't the years to evaluate your Own personal perspective on the interaction and consequences ( mental,physical, emotional) you cannot be considered an adult.
If you have all that and Still not the capacity, it mental retardation, imo also not an adult.
If you have all the chances and time...and still male dumbest decisions?? That's on you. Consequences as an adult.
- in-between " bad girl thigh work"
How do we evaluate who has that framework and who doesn't?
You correctly observe that seriously mentally retarded children are, for all intents, legally children.
But there have been frequent controversies about such "legal children" having sex with EACH OTHER, and having children they are unable to care for, which in turn become a social burden (or are aborted, again without the consent of the "legal child" carrying them).
I would say that much of my comment would apply,even if you excised " sex and sexual conduct etc" out of it.
As to how to evaluate? That's gunna be a bitch,ain't it?
We " generalize" our evaluation already by saying:
" Thou art 18,and by dint of having survived the ravages of almost 2 decades, we proclaim you Experienced Enough to Adult!"
When in truth,there probably ought be some kind of mental/emotional capacity testing for individuals at 18...with requisite, honest to goodness slaps to the head for those who have the Capacity,but refuse to shoulder the Maturity aspects.
Also- just because we made/make slaves of children in mines etc...doesn't mean they're "all growed up like!". ( and no...I'm not saying you suggested such). It means some times and circumstances don't care whit that as a babe yet,you've not had time to just " be children"
This reiterates why pedophilia is immoral, but doesn't address the question of "what's a child?"
Hopefully I covered that...but like I said...I'm thinking furiously
As the child of a pedophile, I thank you.