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UK refugee's avatar

I'll always reply at something of a tangent because of where my mind's at. But as you mention reproduction and succession, here's where my mind's at in this regard:

More intellectual/educated people have lower birthrates for multiple factors. c.f. Idiocracy opening scene still doing the rounds.

Donald Hoffman's Evolutionary Game Theory maths says that more truthful species die out, whilst only those fitter to the parameters flourish. Extrapolating this means that once a species (or member of a species) comes to ultimate truth it will stop reproducing. He further speculates that the entire of SpaceTime could be illusory (along with many contemporary physicists, and Plato and his homies). Thus sufficiently enlightened society will opt out and be at one with timeless perfections.

Perhaps we already have historical and contemporary examples of this including enlightened yogis who forgo almost even food let alone families. (Vows of celibacy in various denominations are meant to be around this, but when foisted upon their unenlightened recruits just leads to despicable deviancy) Whole groups within the Ebionites like the Gnostics felt this realm a false one made for suffering and often refused to have children so that no more sparks of Christ would be embodied, and get stuck or lost here.

I have created some sparks myself and will endeavour nevertheless to show them as much truth as they can cope with whilst optimising real enjoyment and light-heartedness when and where possible.

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SomeDude's avatar

I'm one for two on your last paragraph.

older youngling rejects everything I've tried to teach and follows Establishment beliefs and protocols. refused the enjoyment and light heartedness too.

the younger not only seems to have absorbed the data I've presented, he now seeks out more of his own. and one really important point he assimilated is that you're only young once and better enjoy that time before you're expected to be responsible and use up much of your time laboring for the betterment of the elite in exchange for fictional money.

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Rikard's avatar

The bit about dark corners is also the distinguishing feature between someone not realising they are (borderline) psychotic, and someone who is (borderline) psychotic but realises it and experiences the psychosis as alien to their self. Not saying you is anywhere near that, it's just that it's the same divider as is used in therapy when ascertaining the patient's status, prognosis and so on.

Example, using a person I know very well: this person sometimes experiences delusions of the schizophrenic kind, a recurring one being the feeling that gravity is about to shift 90 degrees, thus inducing severe and acute vertigo and panic; "I'm falling into the wall!" which looks exactly like it sounds, the person literally "falls" into the nearest object. However, there is and always has been a total awareness that this is alien, wrong and harmful not to mention unnatural and impossible - which is why it was treatable using cognitive behaviour therapy. Had this person lacked awareness that the feelings and delusions were alien, no treatment would have worked other as temporary relief.

About lies: not to sound too snobbish I hope, but no-one needs resort to lying if they have at least a modicum of skill at word-crafying, and a little practice.

And truth takes many forms, that's the fun of it. Truth is a multi-faceted, multi-angled thing, always inversing itself into itself. I used this trick when finding myself as substitute teacher for a bunch of ten year olds supposed to get their first glimpse of philosophy:

Holding up a ruler: "Is this long or not?" And then just flow along as their answers and suggestions start coming. Compared to what? Seen from which end? And so on.

It's a shame philosphy and rethorics and logic isn't taught from age 5, when the mind and brain still is plastic - instead, every regime insists on trying to teach absolute truth, which is in itself an unsolvable paradox (unless one opts for the Abrahamic religious answer, which honestly looks like a cop out, philosphically speaking).

with writing, it is like with weight lifting. You have to do all the boring tedious repetitions before you get to shine and is able to do pull ups in full kit.

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Guttermouth's avatar

The first paragraph: I've wondered. The tradesmen's term for what you're describing, by the way, is "ego syntonic" (not alien to self) or "ego dystonic" (alien to self) and it is, as you said, a crucial element of both diagnosis and prognosis (any kind of ego syntonic delusion is pretty much hopeless).

You're absolutely right that no one NEEDS to lie externally either, ever. I simply don't find it a strict issue of morality. Cowardice, maybe, or laziness, but not inherent WRONGness. There are times when it is the easiest solution, or the most peaceful, etc.

I get what you're saying with the last few paragraphs, but to me, that just illustrates the importance of teaching objective and subjective truth. Your examples are subjective, and "lying" doesn't really apply unless someone is deliberately masking their intent ("this casserole is great"). Objective truth makes lying clearer.

Abrahamic absolutes of truth ironically often illustrate how often the arbitration of truth is simply about appeal to authority.

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Rikard's avatar

Yes, exactly so! (Hoo-ray, I managed to write something legible!)

Of course there maybe situations where an outright falsehood is the path of least harm, that's a given really: "Does this dress make me look fat?", and well, as every man knows (or should know), the right answer is "You look smashing dear, the other ladies' are goong to go green with envy seeing how well that dress fits!" - even if it's an old potatoe sack.

Because the essence is key, isn't it? In such an instance it's not about objective truth but emotional reinforcement. Same thing when I say "Awww, I don't know any of those people! Those guys juts blab about things I know nothing about!" and she goes: "You don't have to say anything dear, you can just lean against a wall looking manlier than anyone else." And I buy it very time.

My favourite example (which is or at least was a smash hit with a lot of students) is "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!". Oh yeah, and that line was a what, hmm?

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Raptor's avatar

Being honest with yourself is a def. a good thing.

For me an important thing I will not indulge in is self pity. I think it is utterly ruinous and serves LITERALLY no good purpose. You can use being honest with yourself to toss self pity to the curb.

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Mike Hind's avatar

That point about the root of most unhappiness being lack of self-knowledge - and therefore authenticity - is criminally under-appreciated.

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Guttermouth's avatar

For a while I was ghost-writing online course material for a sort of digital wellness guru and the thing people spent the most time on- these were all very privileged, laptop class luxury belief folks, mind- was lying to themselves about what they wanted to do with their lives.

I gradually came to understand that this was so endemic among this population because (I believe) so much of their identity formation was around received knowledge- "everyone believes <this> is an ideal life. Every right-thinking person values <this> and devalues <this>."

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la chevalerie vit's avatar

This rings vérité. I was going to start listing some epiphanies in my life, like when I realized drinking myself into oblivion wasn’t a good time, or that I couldn’t actually explain to others the justification for some views I had picked up from NPR, so instead I’ll just mention that of all the myriad instances I’ve seen of the use of myriad, yours is among a dearth of correct usages. Thank you, both for myriad and the piece.

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SomeDude's avatar

I had a breakdown in 2009 (not proud of it either.)

but during that 6 months of mental misery, I became familiar with a few dark corners of my inner self, as well as a few major strengths and weaknesses, that I hadn't already formally recognized. most of that I'd like to think that I'd already identified previous to the breakdown... I've always been a bit self absorbed and aware of myself.

I like to think I'm pretty cognizant of myself overall, inside mentally, and physically as well. way more than most people I've met.

I'm sure it influences my decision making.

there are certainly conflicts between my predilections, desires, and analysis of what I have to do to get by in the subjective reality both inside and outside my own home environment, but I balance those conflicts between concrete external requirements (like paying off my house, keeping up on taxes so said house isn't sold on the courthouse steps by those who hold the power to void titlular ownership in the name of the State, and maintaining just enough of an aesthetic front not to be fined for violating the City's involuntary membership HOA standards set arbitrarily for all homeowners,) concrete internal requirements (like food, water, Slack time, and a certain level of climate control to increase my active time window) and ephemeral desires (like extra Slack, labor saving devices, creature comforts, and other first world luxuries.)

when I learned about a decade ago that most other people seem to have a more limited self awareness (mental and especially physical) then I started to really appreciate how mine feels a lot more complete. I originally had a lot more body awareness as an innate subsidiary function of analyzing everything, but until my breakdown I hadn't fully applied that analysis to the deliberately suppressed darker corners of my psyche. I kind of visualize that as moving the mostly useless, societally undesirable internal features from closets, chests, and boxes, into barred cells which at least let me observe the pacing prisoners within and keep them aerated so they don't get to decay into even more offensive zombie versions of themselves.

//end exposé

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B Bulluck's avatar

Such a talented writer. You express yourself so eloquently and yet with an economy of words, without filling blather. You have obviously done a lot of "the internal work" to be able to be so clear and honest with yourself as well as so candid with us. Thank you!

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Guttermouth's avatar

I take that as very high praise, because I consider myself to have a long way to go with "economy of words." I'm still challenging myself to be concise while remaining longform.

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AL's avatar

I love this piece. You are right. It may not be the smoothest, most pleasant path, but it is the only real way to go.

My parents had flaws like everyone else, but their biggest was lying to themselves pretty much about everything. My mom passed a year ago at 93 and my 97 yr. old dad still tells (always did) a fantastical account about their marriage and our family. The fantasy could not be more polar opposite than the truth and nothing he said outwardly ever added up. But I think it was their marriage, and this family dynamic overall, that drove me to become what my friend describes as a "truth-teller." (Her exact words, though, are important in the context she delivered them: "AL, nobody likes a truth-teller."). In other words, the lies, the wild interpretations of events, the statements that never matched up with reality grated so heavily on my psyche, that I became a die-hard realist. Though I didn't know it then, I even went to law school, not because I loved the law or was particularly good at arguing things, but because I saw it as a path or a guidebook to "truth." Taking a set of facts and honing in on what really happened or at least getting as close as I could to what was real. And it explained a lot of things that had been falsely engrained into my soul. Still working on all of this after several decades.

I have slowly learned that I can be less vocal about the truth (that part has not served me well), but I still have a hard time with that. I've got plenty of dark corners and a little more anger than I'd like. But boy has it served me well otherwise--a strong connection to my gut, an ability to discern fact from spin immediately and to use my bullshit meter to help guide my kids on their journeys. PS. My sister, one year younger, turned out just like them. She is literally a caricature of herself. Can't relate.

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Codex redux's avatar

Just thinking about this yesterday... It is why repentance and confession, to God if no-one else, is the only way to be clean, and to move forward from the intolerable weight of one's choices and the consequences thereof.

Even if Christ had never bridged the gap between mankind and the Godhead, it would still be tho only way.

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Guttermouth's avatar

With respect, this isn't really what I'm talking about. In a way I suppose I'm talking about the step of self-awareness that precedes that.

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Codex redux's avatar

Fair dinkum. Yesterday I was thinking about parental guilt and questions asked me by a family member: "Did I do right by my kids?" And "What if I did not?"

At the time I did not have an answer. Your post clarified the first, and my comment addressed the second.

I tend to forget the intervening conversation I have in my head before and after reading a post like yours and leave bits out.

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Guttermouth's avatar

To meet you in the middle, I will say that a sacrament of confession gives added meaning to a confession to the self. In fact, it isn't possible to project the truth outside ourselves- to the divine- if we don't see it first.

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Codex redux's avatar

Close enough 🙂

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Perplexity's avatar

Thanks, Guttermouth.

That one hurt, but in a good way.

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Guttermouth's avatar

This is one of those things that has to hurt to work.

Once in Japan, the place I was staying had a woman come in and do a massage for the athletes (this was a martial arts conference).

I was skeptical when she warned us it could feel strange and people had spiritual experiences, but hey, it was free.

I, no kidding, started crying about halfway through and remembering stuff I hadn't thought about in years. I was in my early thirties.

Like the truth had gotten buried in the flesh.

Good massage, too. I got a hand hit on a 70-year old 5-dan the next day and was as surprised as he was.

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Perplexity's avatar

This whole process has been decades for me. Oddly, it took both of my folks being gone before I started really breaking through any of this crap much.

We have something in common, other than being anti-coercion. I also believe my mom was out of her mind to have kids, given her personality and baggage. But then, so was I, not having worked through much before I did. I suppose a lot of folks would call that the 'wheel of karma'. Probably in Christian thought it would be considered 'the sins of the father'. I call it, screwed up parents have screwed up kids, who have screwed up kids, unless somehow the process is stopped. So now I'm raising my grandkid and doing (I hope and pray) a much better job than I did with her mom.

She's 13 and doesn't hate my guts yet, so ....

😁

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Guttermouth's avatar

The cycle of human misery kept me employed for the first 12 years of my adult life. Eventually, its inevitability and futility dawned on me and I went into the private sector and never looked back.

Does raising your granddaughter feel different? Is it a good thing this time? I'm almost envious of a second chance like that. :)

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Perplexity's avatar

Why, yes, it feels far different! Oddly, I wanted to have another child after I remarried, but my husband balked (for several reasons, family issues on both sides being a major factors).

Now that I have been in round two of parenting for a decade now (we've had custody that long),

I find that the experience is so different as to not even feel like the same role! Granted, it helps that there was no period of maternal near-starvation during my grandchild's gestation, and my grandchild wasn't born blue, so there's a huge difference there I'm pretty certain.

My grandchild was born when I was 50, and I had been with a good therapist for a couple of years already. I'm fairly certain that made a big difference as well. I find myself stopping to think rationally this time around, rather than being in reaction/crisis mode, as I was when her mom was young.

So yes, it's a good thing this time! And happily, my daughter is doing a bit better now, though I wouldn't trust her long term quite yet (she's been sober for less than six months this time so far). [In addition to having substance abuse issues, my daughter has been diagnosed as bi-polar; personally I suspect it's the enhanced version with bouts of psychosis (when she gets far too stressed out.)]

Sorry, I went on a bit there!

Yeah, it's better this time, thank God.

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Guttermouth's avatar

Good.

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Chris Bray's avatar

Love this.

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Yukon Dave's avatar

"Never, ever lie to yourself. Be 100% honest with yourself, all the time, no matter what, about who you are."

The corollary to that is you will spend your life in fantasy land, a most horrible fate for that person as well as everyone who's life they touch. So how does a person know they are in fantasyland?

When reason, logic and discourse are no longer allowed in mixed company.

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Guttermouth's avatar

And, to be honest, unless you're mentally ill, you really should be able to know when that has happened.

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Yukon Dave's avatar

many people around us live with cognitive dissonance

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